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Old 01-30-2012, 09:35 PM
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Default North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

I'm new to the Marlin forum as a poster, but I've been a lurker here for many years. I've drifted away for a little while, but recently returned and decided to register.

One thing I've always admired about this board is the amazing depth of knowledge. Not only in the people posting (lifetimes of experience) but in the knowledge freely shared. It's a pretty humbling place...

I'm registered on other boards as well, and I'm not normally shy about posting. I can't say as I'm a serious poster, and I truly have come to despise the arm chair quarterbacks who second guess everything, but yet forget to spend time on the water to verify all their supposed knowledge. I guess while not being intimidated to post most places, I don't feel overly obligated either, when you'll probably have 5 guys who don't actually fish post behind you and comment how everything posted is bunk.

Well on this board I feel quite the opposite. I guess I'm the armchair angler, when compared with most of you gentleman posting here. I hope you'll tolerate my inexperience and questions.

While I've fished offshore quite a bit (as much as I can humanly manage), mostly here in Oregon chasing albacore in the summer, but also on quite a few trips to PV for big yellowfin and marlin, as well as Cabo, South Texas, and a couple long range trips out of San Diego, my true depth of knowledge is quite shallow compared to this board. One thing I learned a long time ago though, is when you get to a place where you find others know more than you, sit down, shut up, smile genuinely and LISTEN. It's amazing what you can take away, and I've done just that here many times. Listened, and I've taken away an amazing store house of knowledge for those times I do make it offshore.

Sorry for the long intro here, but to the meat of my questions...

As I've perused all the old posts, I've come across Keith Poe's postings about fishing swordfish in Southern California. I've been working on a book project for a while about tuna fishing, and during my research I've found many references to swordfish off the Oregon coast. During the majority of our summer and fall we have all the necessary ingredients for the presence of swordfish, as well as confirmation that some commercial operations have been successful here, but getting much more information than this has been pretty futile.

I've read many of Keith's posts, and read with great interest the ideas about the relationship between the swordfish and the humboldt squid. We have this creature off our coast during part of the summer, and possibly more often than that. While Keith's post talks about the lack of sharks in Southern Cal, especially the blue dogs, here in Oregon we don't seem to have a lack of them... Sometimes during our tuna trips they are the reason our live bait bites get shut down, because we get so swarmed with sharks we have a hard time getting our baits past them, even when we can still see albacore swimming below them taking dead chum the sharks have missed. We also see a pretty decent influx of young salmon sharks. We don't catch them often, but see them on a fairly regular basis, and some days quite often. They are a much more demure shark and aren't nearly as willing to come to the boat as the blues. This fairly robust showing of sharks makes me wonder if they don't accomplish what's suggested by Keith in keeping the humboldts at depth most of the time. I've had a couple of run ins with the big squid when we've done overnighters, and it's generally been in the grey, the last part of the afternoon, and into the early part of the night we've had them around the boat. Otherwise, I just haven't seen them around much. I wonder, is this because of our abundance of sharks?

If the humboldts are around, is it a good guess the swords aren't to far behind?

We also get pretty decent schools of green mackerel, but I don't see them consistently. I think this is partially because they are most often in the dirty green water inshore, while we are searching for tuna in the clean green to blue water offshore. I know this could be another prime forage species for swords.

In the reading I've done, most of the mentions of commercial sword fishing has listed either the Columbia River (Astoria) Canyon as one place worth looking, and also Southern Oregon. I know that some of the commercial boats from Northern California have fished off our Southern Coast, and by most mentions have had some success. I guess with the knowledge base and connections here on this board I'm curious if anyone has more information.

I know Souther California has some deep water, but since I've not run a boat down there, I'm not sure it's as deep as we are here in Oregon. Our high spots to fish halibut is 900-950' and is 27 miles offshore, and this is shallow for the most part. The majority of our offshore water exceeds the 100 fathom curve within 15-18 NM of clearing our jetties, so for the most part its deep water, and by the time we hit 30-35 miles offshore we are at the 500 fathom line.

We have been talking about targeting, or attempting to find swordfish up here, and a few have already tried, but currently with no success. Reading Keith's posts, it sounds like this is common down south as well. I would truly love to try attempting this fishery, but I would also like to have a well balanced game plan, so at least I know I'm going about this in the right way before I chase my tail into oblivion! I don't expect instant gratification by a long shot. I'm just smart enough to know, if I have an idea I'm going about this the right way, when I don't have success I've at least eliminated the idiot factor a fraction, and then it's easier to keep attempting to accomplish something that on the surface seems so insurmountable.

If you've read this far through my small and dramatic novel, I truly appreciate any advice you might offer. Particularly, are the rumors I've heard true enough, and is this worth trying in a serious way? The same question Keith asked early on....WHERE DO WE START? Should we try the Columbia River (Astoria) Canyon, or should we run 100 to 150 miles offshore and begin in the warm currents (and traditionally they get really warm out there, 65-68 degrees late summer, sometimes warmer)? What depth should we fish at? Whole squid, dead mackerel, strip baits? Are circle hooks our best bet, and should we be drifting or slow trolling?

Any help would be most appreciated....

And directly to Keith Poe..., if you have any interest in this project, you have an open seat on our boat any time you'd like. I know it probably doesn't sound that interesting...but if it grabs your fancy....

Thanks again,
John
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

Aloha

Swordfish sun themselves when they are in cold water like California and the Northern Atlantic.

If you don't see an occasional swordfish getting a tan then Oregon might not have a large enough population to target.

Mako sharks eat swordfish in Cali and the North Atlantic. If swords are in your area Makos should be allso.

If you try fishing swords in Astoria canyon you might try chumming the water to see if a Mako comes around

You mentioned Humbolts in your area. I believe you. I have seen the reports of them washed up on the beach dead. I think they come in with a layer of warm water then freeze to death. This still inicates that a food source is available. Give it a try!
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

Hello John

You ever see any breeder salmon sharks up there ?
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

John open this link and then click on mako animation tracking and look and see if any come near your area then do the same with BFT.

You can use your mouse to drag the slide bar scale to speed it up and you can drag the map and zoom in and out.

Mako Shark | TOPP

lets take this slow so we do not get to much mixed up at once i have a tendency to mix everything up being dyslexic and very excitable.




i have a surprise i have been keeping to myself I'm going to share at several seminars coming up at bass pro shops, seeker Fred hall and some landings, lets just say we have a new big game fishery in so cal. that has sent the researchers in a frenzy of surprise and disbelief.
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

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Old 02-02-2012, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

Keith, that sounds pretty exciting. I'm looking forward to hearing the news. Either you finally cracked the Swordfish deal wide open, or somebody nailed some of the bigger bluefin...I'm having a hard time imagining any thing other than these two, but life is full of surprises! Regardless of what it is, I'm happy to hear you've figured something out, and look forward to hearing the news!

With that said, I've looked at the tracking data for Mako's before. We don't really have them up here as best I can tell. I've spent a fair amount of time offshore here, 15-20 trips per year (our weather doesn't cooperate a lot, otherwise it would be quite a few more trips per year...), and with all the blood we get in the water while tuna fishing I've yet to see a mako behind the boat.

I have seen a couple of threshers, 1 great white that I know wasn't a breeder salmon shark, and a couple of the larger model salmon sharks (they have looked uncomonlly dark, almost black, and they have the wavy lateral line like the great whites). I actually had the largest salmon shark I've seen take a hooked albacore. I ended up getting the albie, but it was pretty tore up. The most interesting part was when the shark let it go it was 40 yards away from the boat and near the surface. I started reeling the dead tuna across the surface and the shark made a high speed pass at the dead tuna like I was fishing a topwater for bass. It was a pretty incredible spectacle. We just don't see the mature fish that often, and honestly the small ones are shy. They don't really come to the boat very often, and when they do they seem to make one pas off the side, maybe a second and then they are gone. Just seem to be VERY skittish. I see them more often when we are motoring from spot to spot and they don't let us approach very close before they dive and disappear.

I've done a little more reading since my first post, especially about Swords doing the sunning thing in the cold water. This definitely leads me to believe we probably don't have them offshore. If we did, we would see them because our surface waters not to warm, only 59 to 62 degrees most seasons, and the water below the thermocline I'm sure is much colder. I have been hoping for a chance to try them for a couple years, and even rigged a couple of my 80W Tiagras on bent butts waiting for the chance, but it's never come to pass, and I guess it really doesn't matter... I'm sure we would have seen them ourselves sunning themselves while they digested their dinner, or at least heard some stories from other fisherman who have spotted the sickled tail sleepers.

Keith, if you have more info that sheds light to the contrary, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm kind of figuring we just don't have the purple gladiators up here...

And Mikey, thanks for your input as well. Without the presence of Makos, I think this just puts one more nail in the coffin of these fish probably aren't present... I do appreciate the reply, the info, and the willingness to help!
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

Hello John sorry i have had a very long day and will respond to morrow sir
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

Keith, no worries and no rush. Thanks for replying when you can. Hope this means you were out there the last couple of days, and hope you found some success!
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

John sorry i have not gotten back to you i did write a long response and lost it before posting it. I'm also in the middle of buying a 31' Bertram with the purchase 99% complete i just need to pick her up a long way from home.

I worked on my 24' skiff all day and I'm beat but i will rewrite a response very soon maybe after a cat nap.

Keith
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: North Eastern Pacific Swordfish Info- Help?

Hey John

I showed you the mako tracking because most the tracking is of juveniles none breeders that prefer warmer waters than swordfish above 64-F +or- a few degrees.

There are several factors to consider one being a lot of gill netters in rough seas do not use harpoons because it's a hazard in rough seas and very difficult to see finners basking in rough water.

Gill netters prefer water 58-65-F very similar to tuna conditions on big breaks for several reasons. with 40' planks off the bow.

Prey can not cross a break or they will go in to shock or go deep because of the thermocline or the the cooler water will aging cause them to go in to shock.

these barriers act like walls for predators to herd and trap prey corralling them pinning them down kind of like shoaling them.

The warm side of the break is a predator comfort zone making it possible for the swordfish to comfortably relax and recharge their batteries resting and digest their food much faster after foraging deep on cold prey reducing their core temperature. In the warmer water they can digest pert much faster and warm their brain and eyes back up to maximise their advantage over cold blooded slow half frozen prey hideing in low light levels deep compared to prey near the surface at night is much warmer and much faster with improved vision.

the swordfish has a big advantage feeding deep during the day verses night as a result of the swordfishes heater for their brain and eyes that have functioning pupils like us.

The cold side of the break you can see all the chlorophyll from the satellite charts telling you where most of the food chain or food web is likely to be concentrated but remember the chlorophyll is also under the thermocline not visible on a satellite chart something very few anglers are aware of.

Most of the oceans biomass is congregate below these chlorophyll maximum areas rising and falling with light levels day night moon weather clouds etc,. visible on a depth sounder so you know where to present baits day or night using a line counter to match the depth from the depth sounder.

This food web or food chain on these breaks is a primary predator gathering location like a water hole in the desert.

That is why commercial guys target them and if the do understand these principals they will not share them.

now with this in mind when you are reading different information from different fisheries regarding swordfish oceanographic conditions keep in mind if you are near shore like in the so cal bight upwelling system there are a different animal and open ocean in the central north pacific ocean north of Hawaii where they are really primarly targeting tuna with a much deeper thermocline than say nor cal you need to tease out the important principals pertaining to your fishery with a shallow thermocline with no bottom way off shore unlike the near shore upwelling in the so cal bight and north and south flowing currents to consider and gyres.

lets look at what conditions the gill netters target in central California and sometimes in northern California all depending on the season SST and chlorophyll and prey spawning areas etc. that have a lot of seasonal consistencies but also have a lot of environmental variability
influencing a vast amount of variability's that are not impossible to understand and dial in if you keep up with the variability's on a regular basis including history current reports etc. with an understanding of swordfish preferences migration and biology also influenced by their mass.


Basically understanding when the swordfish could be in your range of your fishery is the same as when the albacore water moves in a big break plume with lots of life big food web chlorophyll 58-65-F would be a primary gill net target when they push in you range.

when you have these conditions push in and you hammer the tuna stay and drift in the middle of the life with live bait using chum from new fish all at night above the thermocline visible on the depth sounder.

swordfish are opportunistic scavenger one tooth sniffer dog sharks that come in on chum just out side the lights from the boat tripping on the smell of good chum action and live bait will usually keep most of the blue sharks away.

make sure you use a chem light so the predators can find your bait first and not chase the prey around the boat that is pigging out on all the chlorophyll from the lights gathering the chlorophyll.

Lights gather plankton and prey eat plankton who chase whole school of prey away from your dinner party, getting tired and filling up and going away chasing prey so using light is a great idea to gather a food chain web at your boat leading right to your chum slick and while chum is in one direction sound travels in all 360 directions from the generators ringing the dinner bell so raise hell and bring the predators in using light and noise is good but sometimes total darkness works well to pin pointing the light stick as a focal point in all that chum smelling so good so they do not chase all the bait balls and prey away making noise to attract predators because the more noise and light the better to ring the hell out of the dinner bell.

when the prey around the boat in the lights splits there is a predator around get ready.

day time deep drop is all about the depth sounder looking for the scattering layer and life being balled up, use a line counter and drop to that depth and give it a try.

in you see deep diving Russo's, elephant seals etc. you are in an area where there is abundant deep scattering layer prey that will hold swordfish and tuna.

if the tuna are not chewing up top when you do get a tuna open it up and see what they are feeding on from the deep scattering layer prey and deep drop and drift to that depth.

do i think swordfish are available in your area ? yes i do and i would target my effort when the tuna water pushes in range but swordfish style not tuna style in deep water during the day where there is lots of prey deep most likely the bigger tuna will be feeding deep because the tuna and swordfish have internal heater to warm their brains and eyes with dilating pupils giving them a big advantage over cold blooded slow half frozen prey that are a lot easier targets than prey up top at night.

The larger the predators the more mass they have to keep warmer loner than smaller predators who get colder faster causing the smaller predators to feed up top more and bigger predators can feed a lot deeper a lot longer on slow cold fish trying to hide in the dark.

Squid and other fish are transparent so they can reduce making a silhouette blocking out sun light when predators are below them in deep water looking up for their silhouette.

Prey use bioluminescence to match the hatch of the light levels around them to blend in reducing their silhouette as they sneak up to the bottom of the sun light zone and sneak some plankton food or scooby snacks while elvis is looking at them like a bacon peanut butter sandwich.

Chumming at night is critical when swordfish are up top in low light levels,with out a chum wall miles long you only have attractors out as far as your lines and a limited amount of oil dissipating from your bait.

a gill net is 1 mile long and 30' deep incredibly increasing their chances of catching fish, imagine if their net was only a few feet square equivalent to a few baits drifting with out a few miles of chum.

If you are drifting 1-3 knots at night when the swordfish are up top usually above the thermocline in an area where tuna was during the day and lots of life on the big break dragging chum buckets choke especially in windy conditions you could easily be out attracting a 1 mile 30' deep gill netter with a chum slick tuna, swordfish, Opah attractor miles long behind your boat drifting attracting everything to you instantly enhancing your opportunities.

sure the unwanted sharks will show but they are usually lazy and will not chase feisty baits like big deans of mackerel especially if the bait can out swim them assuming you do not have to heavy of gear slowing them down.

trolling at night in high chlorophyll areas can create a unnatural wall of bioluminescence light freaking the predators out.

i have placed my baits just inside the 3000 watts of light so no bio was illuminated with success and lighting up well with light sticks to hide the unnatural wall of bio light from the trolled mono line.

OK enough for now hope this helps and i would like to come up in a few months and see if we can find and catch some of the salmon sharks it's so expensive to go to Alaska and catch them.

these are just some basics principals but relative to what you are up against to my understanding.

Hopefully i have my new boat soon and i can fish outside longer in rougher seas.

she could have a range over 800 miles to my understanding



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Last edited by Keith Poe; 02-07-2012 at 06:25 AM.
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